Episode 94. Dr. Jennifer Bacon: Sacred Activism and Educating the Whole Child

Jennifer Bacon

TRT 45 minutes

 

[MUSIC]

 

David:

Hello, and welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I’m your host, David Devine. And it’s a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions — Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement.

 

David:

Hello, everyone and welcome to another episode of the Mindful U Podcast. Today I’d like to welcome our very special guest, Dr. Jennifer Bacon. Jennifer is a core Associate Professor in Education at Naropa University and currently serves as a faculty chair and practicum coordinator for the Naropa’s Elementary Education program. She earned her PhD in Curriculum and instruction from the University of Maryland College Park, and her MEd in special education from the University of Virginia. In addition to her experience in education, Dr. Bacon is an interfaith minister, and is trained in the use of poetry therapy, spiritual guidance and yoga. So welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Thank you for having me, David. I am doing well. It’s a Monday. Feels a little bit like a Monday, but otherwise doing wonderfully well.

 

David:

You are right, it is Monday. But you know what, it’s so gorgeous outside.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

I know. It’s — it’s wild. Because like we first moved here, maybe going on four years ago, right, to Boulder. And like that year, I think it started snowing in October and went to like June. So, so appreciating all this sunshine, and like it’s been up to almost 80 degrees.

 

David:

And what’s crazy about the like early snow, it’s — I feel like it steals the fall. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes. 

 

David:

Because all the trees like oh, now it’s winter? No, no, I want fall. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

The leaves are like we’re done. We’re melting.

 

David:

See you later. See you in like eight months or so. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly, right. 

 

David:

All right. So I’ve noticed you have such a like a diverse background. But there is a narrative with your background, it seems like there’s some education, some justice, very, like self healing, you know, working on yourself sort of teachings and education background. And I’m wondering what was the direction you were taking while pursuing your educational path? And what were the outcomes that you were looking to get to like, what did you want to become, compared to what did you get to?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, oh, gosh, I love that question. Okay.

 

David:

It’s like a two parter.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Totally, even when I was in high school, like, there were certain paths that I really wanted to take. So one was to be a teacher, and follow my mother’s footsteps. She was a special ed teacher and that’s what led me to special education. The other was to be a psychologist. And then the third was to be a writer. So that all I think came together with like, the curriculum and instruction, being a special ed teacher, getting to use my poetry and writing with the students and really kind of nurture their writing, and then encompassed in it all, I think it’s just like the holistic outlook on life, which kind of leads us to like self care, and awareness and community and connection.

 

David:

Okay, yeah, I really liked that. I actually was in the special education program when I was in elementary school. I actually was one of those kids that was held back in kindergarten. So my teachers noticed something in me like a long time ago, and I actually was in the special education program, my whole educational career. And I found it super useful. And yeah, just like normal education sometimes doesn’t fit the mold and the way the brain works on some people. And there was nothing like different about me, other than the way I learned.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly.

 

David:

It’s not my learning ability that was different. It was — it was like the content of how it was displayed.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Absolutely. I’m so glad you said that. And that’s one of the things that I love also, like with my teacher training programs, like in elementary ed, that we talk about in special education or with exceptional learners. First of all, like if you are a student who has been identified as having a learning disability, you have to have average to above average intelligence. And so we’re looking at really creative kids, really bright kids who don’t always express themselves in a traditional way, and how we can support that, how we can differentiate, how we can make things exciting, and tap into all these incredible strengths, which is what I found with so many of my students. Like they were brilliant and gifted, and they could write these amazing poems, but being forced to kind of do like rote memorization, or being stuck in this little box didn’t serve them or really anybody else for that matter.

 

David:

You mentioned the idea of like a disability in education. But what I found is like I had an advantage, an advantage to learn in a creative manner. It’s just — it was just the educational programs weren’t set up in that way. So it’s like, how you said sometimes, like, their — the intelligence isn’t just being des — or it’s being interrupted, because of the way that the program has been set to learn. And so that’s what I found, like, I feel like a super intelligent want to learn sponge, but yet, you know, going through like elementary school and high school, they’re like, oh, you have a disability. And I’m like, do I though? 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly.

 

David:

You have a disability with me.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right in how you’re teaching — exactly.

 

David:

Come on.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

And I love that too, because I think we’ve really have worked to change the language to like learning differently. Instead of like, you know, having a disability or like, even back in the day, when we went through the training, they’d be like, oh, the disabled child, we don’t use that language anymore. Because it’s the person first, and then tapping into all this great, like gifts and creativity, and exciting things that like, people need to be able to have the space to share whether you’re little or whether you’re a senior citizen.

 

David:

Do you see when working with kind of like special education crowds, do you see a common thread of the way that they digest information? Are there like disabilities that are like they’re different, they show up differently or do you see any common threads, anything that’s like kind of wild and new?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

That’s a really good question. I don’t know that I see anything kind of wild or new. But I do feel like, we are better prepared to recognize that like, everybody learns differently in ways that we didn’t always acknowledge in the past. And to really nurture the whole child, which I think is so important. So like in special education, one of the things that came about, and I can’t really remember the timeframe, I want to say maybe like, within the last 10 years or so, was response to intervention. So one of the important parts of that is that instead of being like, okay, well, you automatically have an IEP, or we’re already deciding, like, you’re going to be tracked in this way like for a special education class. It’s like the whole class instruction. And then like looking at how we can differentiate for all children, because all the children learn in their own way, how can we nurture these gifts? How can we instead of doing like a pullout program, like, okay, you’re leaving, and you’re going into a special education class, but a push in program where it’s like, how about we have the model of inclusion. So there are two teachers, a general education teacher and a special education teacher. And whether you have an IEP or not, if there are certain areas where you need to have like extra support, that can be done by a teacher who is in special education, without needing to have the identification of oh, this is a child who was an exceptional learner. So I think there are new ways of looking at things that are pretty exciting.

 

David:

Okay, so I’m having a thought. I agree with you, I think that’s really important to have like two different ways of learning. And I’m wondering — I’m wondering if like, a non special education student, if they went into a special education class, like, would they have difficulties because all of a sudden, they’re learning in a different way. So again, it goes back to the model, and then the special ed kid doesn’t have issues because when their needs are being met, then they learn like — like learning is an ability that everybody has. But then, like, would the normal you know, quote, air quotes, quotation, normal student would all of a sudden, they be labeled special ed, if they got taught in a different way, you know, so I’m wondering, is it just a label? Or is it like, like, do normal students actually have a problem if they actually learn in a different way, just because they’re, you know, maybe emotionally, physically and mentally developed in a way that might learn the school teaches, but then when they try something different than they’re like, uh oh, this feels a little bit difficult to me now.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, I could definitely — I think that happens all the time. Like, just in mainstream culture in general, I think that we have like a certain way, like, this is how the dominant culture does things, whether it’s like racially, whether it’s, you know, neuro-linguistically, etc. And then when you find —

 

David:

Good word. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

And then when you — when you find, like, ways in which like, oh, wait, I’m not in the dominant culture. I’m not the — the mainstream like learner or what have you. Often people do struggle, right, because you’re out of your comfort zone. And you have to learn new coping mechanisms, which we normally put on, you know, children or adults that were like, okay, well, they don’t fit into the mainstream, so they have to adjust. What if we started adjusting? What if we started accommodating a full group of folks who all have differences because we do, right? We all have our own differences.

 

David:

Yeah. I feel like that’s where we learn more is celebrating differences then to homogenize certain ways of learning or content that we receive. And also you said something about the whole child, and I think that’s very important in you know, were both of Naropa and a contemplative model is a whole holistic way of learning. It’s like, how you feel is important, how you digest content is important. What you think about is important, how you engage with student and teacher relationships, everything is important. What you’re learning is important. And — and I kind of wonder, like, can you speak upon why the importance of the whole child is great for like, a better learning environment?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, I think that one of the most important things is for everyone, but you know, as we focus on young folks to be able to thrive, and not to feel fragmented. So if we’re in a classroom setting, and we’re only addressing like your academic needs, but you had a rough morning, or, you know, maybe you’re coming in also with like, a certain level of trauma, which we are seeing more and more, particularly, because our — our young folks are contending with so much. We have a pandemic, we — you know, we have had like massive racial oppression that we’re seeing come to the surface and out in the media in ways that it’s — not that it hasn’t existed before, but that’s more visible. So — or maybe you didn’t eat this morning, you know, maybe your parents are going through a divorce. So to have you sit down and just only tend to like math and science is not realistic. You know, what’s in your heart right now? What’s in your spirit? How do we like integrate everything, so you come in and you feel fully seen — mind, body, spirit, and more. And that’s really part of the major component of educating the whole child.

 

David:

Yeah, it’s such a weird thing that like, I love this conversation. But it’s such a weird thing to think about, like, when I was young, nobody asked me like, how do you feel today.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right, totally. Exactly. 

 

David:

Sit down. Do your math.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes, exactly. That was my narrative too, like math, I really, really struggled. And they were like, okay, so it’s because she’s a girl, or it’s because like, you know, you have a phobia of math, or like, all of these different things. And I’m like, you know, if you also are just like, working with me, as a human being, a lot of these things would be useful and certain accommodations that, you know, were put in place like, not until college, where I’m like, oh, my gosh, where I can advocate for myself, which, you know, it’s a process, right? And I need to have a calculator, whether so and so does or not, or I need to have access to manipulatives. This is now becoming like part of the standard classroom. It wasn’t when we were growing up, it was all a process,

 

David:

Advocating. I think that’s very important. And I’m glad you said that, because I’m just thinking now of when you’re young, you don’t realize you have the ability to like state your needs. And I don’t think you do. So you kind of learn to not, and what’s important is to let people know where you’re at, and to deal with it like a human. I don’t know, it’s like, when we’re young and impressionable, we don’t — we don’t — like I’m having a rough day teacher, it’s like nobody says that.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right! And I don’t know that teachers would have responded to that. You know, it’s like a no, but we’re on page 55. So well, like, you know, you’re having a rough day has nothing to do with like the class and the textbook and everything else. Which is another thing, actually, I have to say that’s pretty exciting is that there’s a focus on social and emotional learning in ways that just we weren’t even aware of, I think when we were growing up, and when most teachers came through the program.

 

David:

Yeah, but then you get that one teacher who just, oh, they’re so great.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, you remember them forever. 

 

David:

It’s true.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

And then the opposite.

 

David:

The kindergarten teacher that held me back, I actually really liked her. But she did hold me back.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Did you get to have her twice, though. 

 

David:

No. Mrs. Tapper. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Mrs. Tapper.

 

David:

I remember. She was great, though.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Mine was Mrs. Hubbard, my kindergarten teacher. And she ended up leaving to like, go build like a log cabin in Vermont, but she really was like a Mrs. Hubbard. She was super nurturing and like, really grounded.

 

David:

Sounds very grounded. That’s awesome. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah. 

 

David:

So you did mention a little bit about like, social emotional learning. So I noticed your educational path has this, like, you know, you have an activism role, you have a social justice role. And you have this lens in which you work through. And I’m curious, when it comes to activism, I know people tend to lean into like a topic that they’re passionate about, and they — they want to work — because there’s so many things to be active about. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right. 

 

David:

So I’m curious, what are the topics and issues that you like to focus on? What are the things that you teach when it’s coming to social justice and activism work?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, so anti racism is by far, one of the most important for me in my life professionally, personally, in every aspect, and it’s woven through all of my work, you know, and we have like, different names for it like, Naropa you know, as you know, like we have created JEDI and for the acronym justice, equity, diversity and inclusion. Some other folks, I’ve heard it as now DEIA, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion and anti racism. And I mean, it’s just — it’s a staple, I think of all of my work, whether I’m doing like a yoga class, or the course, you know, that I created, Sacred Activism is anti racism, social justice, and spirituality, my teacher training, because, again, like you cannot function in a society where we have it set up where things are so unequal, and things aren’t equitable, where people have to worry about your survival. Are you going to be you know, stalked by the police? Are you able to go out at night? You know, how are you going to function? How are you going to find a job, buy a house, you know, things that are so basic that we take for granted in mainstream society? Not everybody has access to, and that’s set up by a specific system.

 

David:

Yeah. And so, before our podcast started, you were telling me that you have a book that’s about to come out. And it’s called what?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

I am an Anti Racist Superhero. And that is a children’s book, primarily for ages four to eight, and it is coming out in the fall — this fall 2023, with Bala Kids,

 

David:

That’s awesome. And the reason they said that is because like you were just talking about the topics that you like, and I — and I really enjoy the fact that you are exposing children to the fact that, like, there’s some things that you might want to notice as you’re growing up, because they might, it’s gonna affect them in their education, in their life, in their situations, that they’re in their community. So it’s really good to see that, because then you’re — you’re giving them a voice, like, right away, you know, but you’re doing it in a way where children know how to learn and you’re not bashing anybody, you’re kind of like, hey, this exists. But if we work together, I feel like we can like unroot it from the source?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Definitely. And I think that that’s like a really big part of it. First of all, children know how to do so many of these things instinctively. And then, you know, we set it up in a way that like, you have to unlearn things like you unlearn your sense of justice, you unlearn your sense of fairness, you know, to fit into mainstream society, and allowing children’s voices to lead us and for them to be able to point out like, yeah, that that wasn’t right. And this is how we can resolve it. And for us, to nurture that and for children to feel empowered, and again, to feel seen.

 

David:

Yeah. And plus, you just, it’s more fun.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right. 

 

David:

It’s like, like being mean is not fun. Don’t do it. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Don’t do it!

 

David:

Alright, so when I met you, we were recording some videos at Naropa, I was actually hired as a video guy. And I was like listening to the content. And I felt really inspired by what you’re saying. So I was like, I need a podcast with you. So we, you know —

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Oh, thank you.

 

David:

So, here we are. But during that time, you’re talking about sacred activism. And, you know, I’ve heard about it. I’ve never really like known too much about it. And I’m just curious, you know, our topic today is about that. So how would you define sacred activism to someone who’s like, just getting into it, just hearing about it?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah. So one of the things that I think is so important is like, with activism that we’re looking at action, right. So it’s not like just talking about, it’s not just reading about it in theory, but putting it into action, really giving a voice. And then the sacred aspect of it is recognizing that like, in doing the work long term, we have to have a spiritual grounding, because it’s so easy to be burned out. It’s so easy to be exhausted, it’s so easy to — to the point of feeling hopeless, right? Because there’s so much work to be done. But with sacred activism, when we’re looking at our anti racism and social justice work, or grounding it in a sense of spirituality, which allows for self care, it allows for care of one another as a community, and a sense of oneness. And so, even when, and — and we have the right, you know, like one of the things I love is like righteous indignation, which I think is so important. So how we channel that rage, how we channel our understandable righteous indignation, to make movement and change. And so much of that is really how we ground ourselves in a sense of self awareness and mindfulness. It keeps us centered, and it keeps us also moving forward. And remembering that this is a collaboration, that we’re operating within a community, a collective.

 

David:

Yeah, the idea of feeling rooted is very important. The work you’re doing is trying to deal with people who are unrooted. So to have a foundation to come from to help them be like, yo, like, there’s something that’s unhinged here that this isn’t right. There’s like a Buddhist aspect to it. So when I hear people say spirituality, I tend to like, think of Buddhism right away. I mean, there’s so many different versions of spirit that we can go to. When you say spirituality, is there an idea of the spirit you’re looking at? Or is that just a general sense of the word?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Oh, my gosh, I love that question. So I think that a lot of it is really led then by participants, you know, by students, by mentees, and like, and everybody on this path, what feels right for you, because it all looks different, right? So you know, I’m an interfaith minister. And I want to be really cognizant of holding up all different expressions, not just of religion, in a traditional sense, but of spirituality. And like, for instance, one of my spiritual guidance mentees, recently we talked about like, what’s your name, like, for that spirit, some people it’s spirits, some people it’s God, some people, you know, it’s universe. And for this mentee, and I thought it was just so beautiful, she’s like, it’s Ma, you know she has like such a sense of like, the divine as a feminine, you know, energy and force and the connection to earth and to nature. So I think that that’s really important in the process of honoring. And then I also have students who come in through sacred activism, and they’re like, I am agnostic, or I am atheist. And I feel like there is a space for everybody on this path, to do what grounds them, like someone’s like, you know what, like, for me, my sense of spirituality is going and sitting by a tree, or surfing in like the ocean. And someone else, it’s for going to church or synagogue, or mosque, and all of those are honored on the path.

 

David:

And I love that. I love the idea of like, what works for you, as long as you’re working with others, and you’re not oppressing people and yourself, then there is a way that spirit can thrive.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly.

 

David:

So I really like that. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, no absolutely. And we have, you know, hard conversations. I mean, we look at traditions in — in like, more structured religious practices historically, and their oppression and their racism and their sexism and homophobia, and unpack that. And it does not mean that you don’t have to be connected to your faith. But I think that’s part of the love is challenging it too. Challenging certain narratives, presenting counter narratives, having like, voices of so many different people and their own lived experience and their creation, I think is critical.

 

David:

Yeah. So I’m curious, so we kind of have like an idea of what sacred activism is. You facilitate a course at Naropa. Can you tell us a little bit about the course some of the things that you teach in the course, you know, it’s — so it’s like, we have an idea what it is, but how do you do it?

 

David:

Yeah, oh goodness. Okay, that’s — more great questions! How do we do this? So I mean, just to back up just a little bit, I created the course, after George Floyd was murdered, brutally murdered, and I just couldn’t, like many of us, I couldn’t sleep and I just felt like such a sense of — of discomfort isn’t even the word, of grief, of like, really deep grief, and what to do with this, how to sit with this, how to create from it, like what change can possibly be made. So you know, as an interfaith minister, and as somebody who’s also gone through training as a spiritual guide, some folks call them spiritual guides, or spiritual companions, others spiritual directors. I wanted to see what I can — could lean into, in bringing out anti racism, social justice, and spirituality. So I created what was a weekend workshop. And I did this workshop with the spiritual guild, which is a phenomenal organization in New York. And that was part of where I’d had my training from. And from there, it just really started to kind of like a weekend is not enough. You know, like in a conversation that’s going to take a few hours, it needs to be longer, it needs to be broader. So it wasn’t just a focus on like clergy, and folks going through this particular training, but on — on all of us, lay people, community members, what is it that we need to lift up? So at Naropa, at the time, I was one of the associate dean’s and we were revising the whole undergraduate curriculum. And part of those revisions included anti racism and social justice as a core component, which I just felt like that in and of itself was — was a pretty radical thing, and necessary, completely essential, necessary thing to be done on the university level, but not to be short lived, you know, because everybody sort of is like reacting to like, okay, like now we’re listening about racism. We’ve been talking about this for how long but now we’re listening. Now we’re having conversations. And then okay, I’ve put up my Black Lives Matter flag and I’m done. You’re not done. We’re not done. Something has to change systemically.

 

David:

Never not done. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right? Right!

 

David:

It’s always — it’s true though, like, I totally agree with that. There’s, there’s a lot of work to be done. And you know, just because you, you know, you change your Facebook photo to like a, like a little black square or — 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly.

 

David:

Put the flag up, it’s like — 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah.

 

David:

It doesn’t mean you’re done. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly. There’s so much more work individually and collectively, right? So that was the creation. So I, you know, I — that actually came out of — so there were two things that were birthed from that. One was my sacred activism course, Anti Racism, Social Justice and Spirituality. And the other was the children’s book, I’m an Anti Racist Hero — Superhero. So those both came out of that, that period of time —

 

David:

I could just see, I’m a superhero.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

And you should see the little character, his name is Malik and so, so precious, it was actually inspired by some of the kiddos in my life. And I’m a mom, full time mom. So that definitely is — is always the impetus for my work. So that’s how it grew about. And then it was also at Naropa, it started out as a weekend course. And then just from the really positive response, I mean, it was so inspiring David, and it was so moving, because folks did not have to sign up for it. It wasn’t something like, okay, because I need this to graduate it was because I’m invested, right? Because I want to help to change in this way. Because I’m doing activism work and I want to do it with others. Because I’m doing activism work, and I’m starting to feel burned out. So how do I ground this also in mindfulness? How do we grow this? How do we work together? And that really feeds you, right. So that became then a two week course, and that we do every semester that then has been launched for the public.

 

David:

Awesome. Well, thank you for all your work, because it’s really beautiful. And I know that the Naropa crowd tends to want to better themselves in the holistic manner, you know, and it’s like, and we need to be mindful about our — our activism, because you could be an activist and not be doing it right, you could be actually doing harm to the scene. So it’s really important and even in harm to yourself, you know, like, we always talk about burnout. And that’s a real thing. And it seems like you have a lot of practices to kind of help you. So I’m curious, could you like maybe set up a scenario where you know, you’re teaching like, is there like something you could — a nugget of wisdom that you would say in your classroom that involves the sacred activism context? 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Is there a nugget of wisdom that involves — 

 

David:

I mean, I guess it doesn’t have to be a nugget of wisdom, but like, how do you teach it?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, so I mean, a lot of it is experiential, but it’s also is grounded in the history, right? So grounded in the history of oppression, and bringing in a lot of information like from the Native American genocide, from, you know, racial trauma. There’s an author also who talks about black fatigue and this heavy lifting and resilience and then having, you know, a thriving African American community that would literally be burned down, like because it was considered that threatening, and we still see — see that kind of thing occurring today in so many different ways. And one of the things that I have found, like from students who’ve gone through it, as they’re doing the readings, as they’re doing their journaling, as they’re doing their audios and sharing their own lived experience, and their interaction and engagement with the materials is, why haven’t we learned this before? So that’s a really great like, we weren’t taught this in school.

 

David:

Yeah, why did I have to come find this? 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right.

 

David:

It seems like very foundational for our upbringing. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right. Exactly. And kind of going back to what we were talking about earlier, and unlearning things like we’re taught this dominant narrative. Why didn’t we know these other voices? Why haven’t we heard about this genocide? Why haven’t we heard about empowerment, and other things around that. So that’s a really huge piece of the course. And also sitting with discomfort. Like we’re unpacking white privilege, we’re unpacking entitlement. And it’s making some, you know, sometimes like, you know, you feel uncomfortable, but you’re sitting in it still. And you’re also having the opportunity not to just lead, but to listen, to be a sacred listener means that you’re hearing underrepresented voices, and we’re amplifying those voices. And you’re saying like, gosh, this is a little uncomfortable, but I’m still in it. And I’m leaning into it. This is also the time where we’re like taking the moment to be like, do your expressive arts. So like, you know, students have done brilliant pieces, like paintings and again, poems and working it through, or like, wow, I’m feeling really activated. But I’m also going to take a moment and do my meditation to reground myself so I can channel that energy and keep going with that. Also, David, like, one of the things that’s new —

 

David:

This is good stuff, I love this. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

LAUGHS. I’m going — on a roll. But like one of the things that we did in introducing it to the public through extended studies at Naropa, is I created a bipoc section in addition to the general section, because we have to have a place to feel safe, that it is beyond away from completely, you know, not a part of the white gaze where I’m saying something in a certain way, because I want to be sure not to offend somebody, or I’m worried about the repercussions. But no, this is a place for you to be built up. For you to, you know, put anything down that you need to rest from, to practice yourself care, to have that community, to have those voices to be fully present, and to just be in your own body and being

 

David:

And what a great invitation to be in your own body. Because it’s like you’re already in it. So might as well feel comfortable in the thing in which you’re operating from, for the rest of your life. You know, you’re talking about safe places. And I think these are great places to have for people who don’t feel safe. Because, you know, as a white privileged male myself, like, I feel pretty safe a lot of the time. But the thing is, is I don’t realize that not everyone feels that. What I was thinking was what can happen in a safe place that can’t happen in a non safe place? So like, why is it important to have a safe place? What does it promote for the people that don’t feel safe in like a normal place? So like, what kind of things can you experience in a safe place that you can’t in another place?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Authenticity.

 

David:

Okay.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

You know, you are just really just being you, being you. And again, it’s not, you know, for anyone else, and how you have to say something, how you have to present yourself, how it has to be done in like, a certain way, whether it’s academia or a certain style of writing, it’s just being in that space, hearing one another, again, really being able to be seen or doing nothing at all. You know, like I found, like, for the course for the public, there’s a lot of dialogue, in the general section, like a lot of conversations, and, you know, questions and reflections. And for this last round in the bipoc section, there was also just a lot of breathing, a lot of pausing. A lot of I don’t have to explain it. I’m just experiencing it, it’s my lived experience, I don’t have to teach it, I just get to be in it. And I think that that’s one of the pieces too, when you are from a marginalized background, you know, whether you’re African American or Latin X, or whether you’re in in the intersections, because that’s something else that I also really want to bring out and hold as the intersectionality like race, gender, class, ability, sexual orientation, gender expression. So important because we — there’s so many different nuances there. But just to be able to show up and not be like, oh, I have to explain this to someone, you’re just being in that space. And you’re, you know, or to have like a student say like, you know, that’s been my lived experience. And no one’s ever explained it before. Or I never could say — necessarily point to like, in this book, and this is what you should read, or this is what you should lift up and like, it’s a feeling of validation as well.

 

David:

Yeah, sometimes it’s hard to word things, right? Until you — until you hear a narrative that you’re like, hey, there it is, that’s what I’ve been looking for. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right. Right. So true. 

 

David:

So when it — when it comes to the type of students that you deal with, I’m sure there’s — there’s people that are coming into your courses and your classes and your — you know, like your environment to learn about themselves. They’re there to learn about how do I better my activism? Or how do I do this? How do I do that? What type of people show up to these courses? Like what do you think they’re trying to learn? Are they trying to learn about themselves or trying to better themselves? Are they trying to better the work that they’re doing? Do they have degree approaches that fit in line with what you’re teaching, like what does that look like?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

I’d say all of the above. And it’s just really inspiring. So like, one of the things that I ask is like, what do you want to learn, but I also asked, like, what do you want to share? Or what do you want to teach? Because everybody comes in with like, you know, like, all these again, like different skills and different talents and different awareness and lived experiences and so you know, particularly like you’re mentioning at Naropa, you know, we have students who’ve been doing this for a minute like or more in the trenches.

 

David:

The long —

 

Jennifer Bacon:

A long minute, exactly. More like years of and are relatively young themselves, right, but have been doing this what feels like a lifetime, you know, bringing that in and also be like, oh, now I’m connected with other folks who are doing activism or I’m learning different styles and I’m sharing my style, and then we come out together sort of thing.

 

David:

Okay. And I bet there’s a powerful moment when you find a community that has like minded pursuits, educational pursuits, self development pursuits, looking on how we deal with social issues and justice issues. And then you’re like, wow, okay, there’s people out here doing what I’m doing. And I feel really good about this.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes, definitely. You know, David, do you remember like, if you — if you know this video, like from — I don’t even know how long ago but like, there was a video, and it was like this song and I can’t even remember who the artists were. But like, there’s a little girl and she’s a bee. She’s like, dressed up like a bee and she doesn’t have like a hive. She doesn’t find a community and at the end, like the music is going and she’s dancing, cuz she found a whole colony of bees.

 

David:

Is it a music video?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah.

 

David:

All I can say is that —

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes!

 

David:

The life is really plain. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly. See, look at this. Now we should turn this into like —

 

David:

I know what song you’re talking about.

 

David:

Like a recording —

 

David:

It’s Blind. I forget who it’s by, but it’s called Blind. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes.

 

David:

Yeah, I know exactly.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right. So that’s what I think of. It’s adorable. And then at the end, she’s like dancing with her bee family. 

 

David:

Yeah!

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Like, right. So it’s kind of like that. It’s like you find — you find your tribe. You find your hive, you find your bees, knowing that you don’t have to do this by yourself, right? None of us do.

 

David:

It’s true. It’s like someone who wears a Halloween costume every day of the year. And you’re like, oh, there’s other people out there like that. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right.

 

David:

Where’s my bees at.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly. 

 

David:

Yeah, you know, because then you can make the honey together. And it’s sweet for everybody. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes, definitely. Awesome metaphors. 

 

David:

This is why you brought this up, didn’t you? 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly right. Colorado, honey, should we do like an advertisement plug for — do we know any — any local honey things to do a plug?

 

David:

I don’t think so. I’m allergic to bees. So I tend to —

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Oh no. 

 

David:

Me and bees are friends though. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Okay.

 

David:

Like we don’t — we don’t like mess with each other. I’m not afraid of bees, but like, you know, they sting me — we — 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

There’s a problem. 

 

David:

We get a little swollen.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

I used to be like that as a kid like, yeah.

 

David:

I mean — I mean, you probably still are you just haven’t been stung by a bee lately. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

I have.

 

David:

Oh, really?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Sad to say. But not in the last maybe 20 years? And it wasn’t how it was when I was like five. You know? Like, it was different. It still hurts, though.

 

David:

Yeah, it’s a little — it’s a reminder you’re alive. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes. 

 

David:

So there was something I wanted to get into. So you — you like poetry therapy? In my mind, I’m like, poetry is beautiful. And it’s — and it is very therapeutic. But I’ve never heard it said poetry therapy. So can you break that down for us? Because you kind of work with poetry therapy. And I’m curious, like, what does that mean? Like, do you prescribe people poems? Do you prescribe them to write poems? Like — like, what is that?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, and I’m so glad you asked that. So for like, purposes of like licensing stuff like that I am not a poetry therapist. I want to be sure to say. I do —

 

David:

As they therapy not therapist. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Exactly so I do cathartic poetry. But there’s actual training, there’s poetry therapy, training, like art therapy, like was with a focus on the visual arts, it’s the focus on poetry and the written word. And it’s just a really exciting kind of, like, opening of your heart, or others sometimes it used to be also called Biblio therapy. But I feel really fortunate. I trained, like, what feels like a million years ago, with a poetry therapist, who was also a social worker, Dr. Peggy Heller. And so, she had this school of thought, and it was like, you know, you could do it in the schools, you could do it with seniors. And then there was another branch that actually had the clinical poetry therapy group. And they worked mostly in a mental house. 

 

David:

Clinical, wow.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, they worked in a mental hospital, and they were amazing. But like, I have kind of used it more like, it’s a release, and it’s a mechanism for healing. So, you bring in whatever you like, you can actually focus on the works of others. Or you can really, which I think tends to be the most powerful generating your own work your own poetry, your own written word.

 

David:

Yeah, and being on this podcast journey, I’ve spoken to a lot of awesome poetry people from the JKS, or just like, affiliates, people coming in and teaching at Naropa. And man, it’s — it’s always this expression of self expression of thought, expression of dreams and visions. And — and every time I hear these people talk, there’s just so — their imagination is just wild. It’s so colorful, and it’s very therapeutic. You know, it feels very beautiful — it almost feel spiritual. You’re just like, whoa.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Right. 

 

David:

I feel that.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, it’s so true. And again, like, you know, because often in this world, we have so much trauma that we’re contending with that can be a very safe way to write through some of your trauma because it doesn’t have to be your narrative. It can. You can do a memoir, you can do auto biography, you can do something like that. Or you can create your own characters and have your story in the way it’s most empowering for you.

 

David:

Yeah, and it allows you to say stuff that might not be easy to say. Or you can create a character that can say something that wants to be said. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes.

 

David:

But I really like this — how you can just splay yourself or your words and — and words are powerful, and they’re very beautiful in the way, the matching of them and how you flow. And it’s just — it’s just really cool to see how creative people can be with their feelings, with what they’re imagining with, like things they want to change. You know, literature has changed history sometimes, you know, some very beautiful words have done some good stuff out there.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yeah, I completely agree with you — completely agree. And I’m fortunate enough to teach this semester. I’m teaching at community and writing course so shout out to them, phenomenal students. And we talk about that, like we talk about, like, you know, like you can write for social change, you can write for like your own catharsis. You can write for entertainment, like some things are done for the public viewing, right? And other things are done just for you, because it is a sacred process.

 

David:

Yeah, yeah. So you do so many things, you have like the poetry therapy we just talked about, you have like social justice work, you got like a sacred activism, courses and classes that you teach. And you’re, like, interfaith minister, and you do so many different things. And you also do yoga, and I’m curious, like, how — how do all of these things deepen your practice in becoming who you are and how you teach and how you show up to your community? Do they help each other out? Is there a way that they deepen each other’s practice? Like, does yoga help your therapy like you ever — you ever in a downward dog, you’re like, oh, I got a great idea for a poem, right now.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Absolutely. I think it’s all expressive, and creative arts, you know, and everything definitely, like feeds off the other. It also is a way of like, trying to stay sane and grounded and in the work, right. Because again, like it can take you in so many different places, but it’s just — it’s a way of also being connected to — to the earth, to the world, to other folks and doing stuff that I love.

 

David:

Yeah. And you got to do stuff you love. Because you want to be stoked inside. Honestly, like being happy is — is a invitation to live a long life. Absolutely. And activism is, is facing the things that are rough, you know, but — but I love the idea of coming to it with a holistic approach and like, realizing like, there’s so many things that can be done, and you can — you can do it with your voice. You can do it with your actions, you can do it with like community discussions and bringing to light the things that need to come.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes. Absolutely true. 

 

David:

Yeah. All right. So with that, before we go, I guess you’ve written a couple books. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

I have!

 

David:

A couple publications. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

I have. 

 

David:

So I’m kind of curious, can you — for our audience, can you just shout out how they can find you, maybe like, if they’re really interested in maybe some courses that you have, where can they find more content from you?

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Thank you. So my book, Sisters in the Dissertation House, a dissertation narrative, which is on mostly bipoc women completing their doctorates in — in fields like STEM, and other underrepresented fields can be found on Amazon. I Am an Anti Racist Superhero, will be out in the fall, but it will actually be available on Amazon in January, although it gets released for the rest of the world in the fall. So as you know, I’m at Naropa. And that email is jbacon@naropa.edu. And I also have a chapter coming out on motherhood and mentorship. So black women as academic mothers, which I’m really excited about, so that all leans into our DEIA work, and then another chapter that’s going to be coming out on DEIA in higher ed. So —

 

David:

Amazing. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Thank you. 

 

David:

Well, I really appreciate you sharing this time with me and talking to me and our audience and the Naropa community. And it was just like, very insightful. And I look forward to creating more content with you.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Thank you. Me, too. This has been so much fun. So we’ll be back every week everyone. David and I are going to do this weekly.

 

David:

We’ll see you next week. Be here. We’ll have another topic to discuss. Maybe we’ll write a poem live on air. Who knows? 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes. And maybe you’ll do some more singing because that was pretty impressive.

 

David:

No, no, no, no, no.

 

Jennifer Bacon:

No more singing. You saw the drum set. I’m not a singer. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Ok.

 

David:

I just — somebody had to remember the song. 

 

Jennifer Bacon:

Yes.

 

[MUSIC]

 

On behalf of the Naropa community, thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates.